Well, he did cover that in the first section of the article, but it's hard to focus on the good aspects when the rampant corruption and people's ugliness keep smacking you in the face.
Or, you know, the media likes to focus on the corruption and ignore the numerous good. Everything is corrupted, but there is good in organized religion. Christians are meant to be persecuted; it's our lot in life, our cross to bear.
This was just one man's story about how being faced with the hypocrisy, abuse of power, and systematic denial of accountability caused him to lose his faith. The religious leaders are supposed to be these great, moral people, so when they abuse their power, it's not just corruption, it's a let down of faith.
While religion and its people are two separate things, it's pretty understandable how incredibly immoral behavior from its leaders can reflect on the religion itself. When the corruption begins that high and is spread throughout the entire organization down to many of the pewsitters, yes, it can overshadow the good that is also done by the religion.
I'm not sure where you're coming from, but in the US, Christians tend to have the opposite problem of persecution. :D
LOL. The Bible talks about us being persecuted. We are put down all the time in America. ALL THE TIME. I don't know where YOU live, but in movies, television, and music, we are constantly ridiculed.
I'd like to point out that I grew up in the church and went to a Christian school for thirteen years which got me constant persecution from my public school peers.
Things have changed a bit in the past 2000 years. For example, we have tasty tasty soda, but sadly, togas are no longer in fashion.
I don't really see being insulted as being the same as being persecuted. It's just part of what happens when a religion defines the powerful majority. The folks in power get more screentime because they're doing powerful things. Also, it's a very American thing to dislike the powerful and root for the underdog, and when you're part of the majority, you can still try to believe you're the underdog.
Things that are religious persecution: Being unable to practice your religion Being afraid to reveal your religious affiliation Being denied job or social opportunities due to your religion Having no public places to practice your religion Not receiving the same governmental benefits other religions do Not having your religion recognized as a religion Not having people of your religion represented proportionally in your government
Things that probably aren't religious persecution: Being criticized Having representatives of your religion criticized Having corruption and scandals in your religion revealed Being forced to remove your display of the 10 Commandments from a public space :D
Things that are the complete polar opposite of religious persecution: Having the vast vast (vast) majority of governmental representatives be the same religion as you Having references to your religion in national governmental documents Having your religion's main holiday be the only national religious holiday
Being afraid to reveal your religious affiliation - Are you in my generation? Do you face college like I do? When I say I'm a Christian in a theatre environment look at me like I'm insane, and the ask me all sorts of questions like "Do you think being gay is bad?" and "What's up with hating abortion?" JUST to rile the peace. And then they blame me for being ignorant and narrow-minded. So, yes, I'm proud of being one, but sometimes I wish I didn't have to say anything about it because of how people treat me. Being denied job or social opportunities due to your religion - Try working in theatre. I've never been so unfairly treated because of my religion in my life.
I say this not knowing you at all, iam, so hopefully it won't be offensive. I have no idea whether you're a good actress/director/stage manager/whatever you do in theater.
One of my closest friends here is an evangelical Christian and ostensibly an actor. He's in the guild and everything. Even so, he's managed to get cast in one show (and one commercial) in the four years I've known him. But never once has he said it's because of his faith. It's a tough field.
Not having any idea how talented you are or aren't, I just wonder if you're really not getting jobs solely because of your faith. If you're certain you are, file a discrimination claim because that's not legal.
Agreed. Christians are certainly persecuted in parts of the world, such as Eritrea, China, parts of the Middle East and far more.
But I have a lot of trouble reconciling the concept of the majority religion in the United States being subjected to persecution. Hell, I belong to a minority religion and I don't think I'm particularly persecuted. There are things that I wish were more accomodating to my faith, but nothing even close to a level I'd call persecution.
No, we're not persecuted, but the trends in the culture are heading that way. Maybe not to the full-on persecution your ancestors went through, but definitely an intellectual marginalization, equating us to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and such.
And I know that FSM was made up to counter a very specific issue, that of science education, but the problem is that it gets expanded in the public consciousness, and the next thing you know, one can't quote anything Christian, whether it be Paul's letters or C.S. Lewis without getting a "OMG u iz a FSM lol!!111eleventy11" thrown back.
I don't know; you could argue that this is the most religious president ever*, which kind of counteracts that argument. From my perspective, we have the most conservative Supreme Court of my life, which is already making government far more open to religion.
I think too often what Christians interpret as persecution is what I see as separation of church and state. Not being allowed to have massive Christmas pageants in school isn't persecution, IMO -- it's ensuring that one viewpoint isn't presented as the correct one by public institutions.
You look at the presidential election -- every single candidate is Christian, and it's to the point that Romney's Mormonism is enough out of the orthodoxy that it's considered one of his biggest problems in the race. I find it hard to go from that step to saying you can't quote C.S. Lewis without being mocked (by rational people).
Christians and Christianity are two very different things. I've found Christianity to be a very good influence in my life, while Christians often infuriate me. I'd do well to remember that Christians are flawed by their very definition, especially since I am one.
I get what you're saying. I see Christians, Christianity, and organized Christian religion as three separate things, and it's only the latter that consistently does things to annoy me.
Christianity's got a lot of good stuff in it, and Christians who actually follow Jesus' teachings tend to be nice people, but those who use religion as an excuse to hate or a way to gain power or control people don't get any sympathy from me.
I really cringe when I read stories like this for a couple of reasons. The first is the perfectly reasonable embarrassment of having representatives of my faith behaving so badly. The second is the knowledge that the author has made his decision purely on existential grounds. He has no logical proposition to state. He has no case other than the age-old one of: 1. There is suffering. 2. God should prevent suffering. 3. There is no God (the old Epicurean chestnut). The more painful thing is that the end effect of this story, whether the author intended it this way or not, is to discourage people from the Christian faith.
As a Lutheran, there are no surprises to me reading the tragedies in this article. I have always known that the Catholic church is corrupt, dogmatic, and mafia-like in its "control" of the sacred; and that Baptists in general are obnoxious, overly ambitious evangels. I have personal experience in the second statement, which is a well-known story to sigma7.
But he does bring up a good point, about faith being a leap in the dark, and I know of a nice counterpoint to that, and rather than take up more space here I'll just link to it. The Anatomy of Faith and the Quest for Reason, Part 1 and Part 2
These are mp3s of lectures given by Christian apologist Ravi Zacharias, who isn't your usual evangelist. He spends most of his time doing Q&A sessions on college campuses, where students challenge him and he defends the faith on intellectual terms night after night. Just right-click and "Save File As." Each file is about 10 MB and runs just under 30 minutes, and you can safely skip the bumpers of the first and last two minutes or so. If anyone's an honest skeptic, they should at least be open to counter-perspectives, so give them a listen.
Thanks for taking it in the spirit in which it was given. ;)
I have a lot of friends who are Baptists, darn fine Baptists. We attended a Baptist bible study for a while, and I got along with them famously. The people I ran into when I was in high school .... not so much.
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Why does no one ever explore the good aspects of organized religion?
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While religion and its people are two separate things, it's pretty understandable how incredibly immoral behavior from its leaders can reflect on the religion itself. When the corruption begins that high and is spread throughout the entire organization down to many of the pewsitters, yes, it can overshadow the good that is also done by the religion.
I'm not sure where you're coming from, but in the US, Christians tend to have the opposite problem of persecution. :D
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There's a big difference between being "put down" in the entertainment media and actually being persecuted.
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I don't really see being insulted as being the same as being persecuted. It's just part of what happens when a religion defines the powerful majority. The folks in power get more screentime because they're doing powerful things. Also, it's a very American thing to dislike the powerful and root for the underdog, and when you're part of the majority, you can still try to believe you're the underdog.
Things that are religious persecution:
Being unable to practice your religion
Being afraid to reveal your religious affiliation
Being denied job or social opportunities due to your religion
Having no public places to practice your religion
Not receiving the same governmental benefits other religions do
Not having your religion recognized as a religion
Not having people of your religion represented proportionally in your government
Things that probably aren't religious persecution:
Being criticized
Having representatives of your religion criticized
Having corruption and scandals in your religion revealed
Being forced to remove your display of the 10 Commandments from a public space :D
Things that are the complete polar opposite of religious persecution:
Having the vast vast (vast) majority of governmental representatives be the same religion as you
Having references to your religion in national governmental documents
Having your religion's main holiday be the only national religious holiday
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Being denied job or social opportunities due to your religion - Try working in theatre. I've never been so unfairly treated because of my religion in my life.
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One of my closest friends here is an evangelical Christian and ostensibly an actor. He's in the guild and everything. Even so, he's managed to get cast in one show (and one commercial) in the four years I've known him. But never once has he said it's because of his faith. It's a tough field.
Not having any idea how talented you are or aren't, I just wonder if you're really not getting jobs solely because of your faith. If you're certain you are, file a discrimination claim because that's not legal.
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But I have a lot of trouble reconciling the concept of the majority religion in the United States being subjected to persecution. Hell, I belong to a minority religion and I don't think I'm particularly persecuted. There are things that I wish were more accomodating to my faith, but nothing even close to a level I'd call persecution.
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And I know that FSM was made up to counter a very specific issue, that of science education, but the problem is that it gets expanded in the public consciousness, and the next thing you know, one can't quote anything Christian, whether it be Paul's letters or C.S. Lewis without getting a "OMG u iz a FSM lol!!111eleventy11" thrown back.
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I think too often what Christians interpret as persecution is what I see as separation of church and state. Not being allowed to have massive Christmas pageants in school isn't persecution, IMO -- it's ensuring that one viewpoint isn't presented as the correct one by public institutions.
You look at the presidential election -- every single candidate is Christian, and it's to the point that Romney's Mormonism is enough out of the orthodoxy that it's considered one of his biggest problems in the race. I find it hard to go from that step to saying you can't quote C.S. Lewis without being mocked (by rational people).
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There's a big difference between ridicule and persecution.
Maybe it is an age thing, Cyn. School kids are notoriously cruel and ignorant. That (mostly!!) changes as people age.
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Christianity's got a lot of good stuff in it, and Christians who actually follow Jesus' teachings tend to be nice people, but those who use religion as an excuse to hate or a way to gain power or control people don't get any sympathy from me.
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*nods*
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I really cringe when I read stories like this for a couple of reasons. The first is the perfectly reasonable embarrassment of having representatives of my faith behaving so badly. The second is the knowledge that the author has made his decision purely on existential grounds. He has no logical proposition to state. He has no case other than the age-old one of: 1. There is suffering. 2. God should prevent suffering. 3. There is no God (the old Epicurean chestnut). The more painful thing is that the end effect of this story, whether the author intended it this way or not, is to discourage people from the Christian faith.
As a Lutheran, there are no surprises to me reading the tragedies in this article. I have always known that the Catholic church is corrupt, dogmatic, and mafia-like in its "control" of the sacred; and that Baptists in general are obnoxious, overly ambitious evangels. I have personal experience in the second statement, which is a well-known story to
But he does bring up a good point, about faith being a leap in the dark, and I know of a nice counterpoint to that, and rather than take up more space here I'll just link to it.
The Anatomy of Faith and the Quest for Reason, Part 1 and Part 2
These are mp3s of lectures given by Christian apologist Ravi Zacharias, who isn't your usual evangelist. He spends most of his time doing Q&A sessions on college campuses, where students challenge him and he defends the faith on intellectual terms night after night. Just right-click and "Save File As." Each file is about 10 MB and runs just under 30 minutes, and you can safely skip the bumpers of the first and last two minutes or so. If anyone's an honest skeptic, they should at least be open to counter-perspectives, so give them a listen.
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LOL... glad you generalized that (says this little ole Baptist... *waves*). :-P
(just givin' you a hard time!!)
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I have a lot of friends who are Baptists, darn fine Baptists. We attended a Baptist bible study for a while, and I got along with them famously. The people I ran into when I was in high school .... not so much.
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